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| RE: Election related TV duels | Üc Tärfâ | September 14, 2005 - 11:22 | | la garçâ malpadert | September 14, 2005 - 15:52 |
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Parent message | | Üc Tärfâ | September 14, 2005 - 11:22 |
| RE: Election related TV duels(#22685), posted by la garçâ malpadert, [IP Hidden], September 14, 2005 - 15:52. Viewed 241 times. |
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la garçâ malpadert
Group: admins
(4379 posts total)
(last post: March 13, 2008 - 16:29)
Citizen #28:
Ugo Truffelli |
> > Incidentally, I'm registered in the constituency where Joschka Fischer is the direct candidate of the Greens, so I already planned to vote for Fischer with my 1st vote.
>
> O yes, please, do so... I've always admirated your foreign minister and Deputy Cancellor...
What do you admire him more for - going along whole-heartedly with the SPD's social cuts, or going along wholeheartedly with the bombing of Serbia? Joschka Fischer has sold out every principle he ever had, even if the principles he had in the '70s - Maoism - were pretty screwy.
Miestrâ Schivâ
Seneschál dal Repúblicâ Talossán / Prime Minister of the Republic of Talossa
"The Republic's Most Articulate Spokeswhatever" - R. B. Madison
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| | Üc Tärfâ | September 14, 2005 - 17:39 |
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Parent message | | la garçâ malpadert | September 14, 2005 - 15:52 |
| RE: Election related TV duels(#22690), posted by Üc Tärfâ, [IP Hidden], September 14, 2005 - 17:39. Viewed 226 times. |
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Üc Tärfâ
Group: citizens
(1365 posts total)
(last post: March 10, 2008 - 08:29)
Citizen #28:
Ugo Truffelli | >
> > > Incidentally, I'm registered in the constituency where Joschka Fischer is the direct candidate of the Greens, so I already planned to vote for Fischer with my 1st vote.
> >
> > O yes, please, do so... I've always admirated your foreign minister and Deputy Cancellor...
>
> What do you admire him more for - going along whole-heartedly with the SPD's social cuts, or going along wholeheartedly with the bombing of Serbia?
Social cut were needed to bring more energy to economy (Europe has had recently a huge slowdown even if the Euro is going stronger and stronger) and the bombing of Serbia was a NATO decision to help Kosovo people that was going to be STERMINATED by Milosevic (who had brought the region in a terrible war in 1992). Serbia anyway wasn't really bombed, and Milosevic felt in the election. Now is being judicated by The Hague Tribunal.
____________________________
MRP Spokesman / Dûceu dels mocts dal MRP
my talossán personal page.
Visitetz Cézembre dürånt el etéu.
e-mail: ugo.truffelli AT libero.it
 |
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| | la garçâ malpadert | September 14, 2005 - 18:11 |
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Parent message | | Üc Tärfâ | September 14, 2005 - 17:39 |
| RE: Election related TV duels(#22692), posted by la garçâ malpadert, [IP Hidden], September 14, 2005 - 18:11. Viewed 237 times. |
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la garçâ malpadert
Group: admins
(4379 posts total)
(last post: March 13, 2008 - 16:29)
Citizen #28:
Ugo Truffelli |
> Social cut were needed to bring more energy to economy
Nonsense. The fact that the social-democratic parties worldwide - SPD, PS in France, DS in Italy, Labour Party in NZ etc - have accepted pure neo-liberal ideology like that just shows why no-one should bother voting for them any more. If the two major parties are only going to argue about how much to punish the workers, then no wonder life for so many ordinary Europeans has gone backwards.
> the bombing of Serbia was a NATO decision to help Kosovo people that was going to be STERMINATED by Milosevic
The bombing of Serbia did nothing to help the Kosovars. In fact it encouraged the Serbs to rally around the tinpot dictator Milosevic and thus probably extended their misery. I note that you're not trying to claim that Kosova is actually in a better state now as a UN protectorate. It's just now the Albanians ethnically cleanse the Serbs rather than the other way around.
> Serbia anyway wasn't really bombed,
.... what?!?
Miestrâ Schivâ
Seneschál dal Repúblicâ Talossán / Prime Minister of the Republic of Talossa
"The Republic's Most Articulate Spokeswhatever" - R. B. Madison
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| | Üc Tärfâ | September 15, 2005 - 05:46 |
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Parent message | | la garçâ malpadert | September 14, 2005 - 18:11 |
| RE: Election related TV duels(#22693), posted by Üc Tärfâ, [IP Hidden], September 15, 2005 - 05:46. Viewed 224 times. |
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Üc Tärfâ
Group: citizens
(1365 posts total)
(last post: March 10, 2008 - 08:29)
Citizen #28:
Ugo Truffelli | >
> > Social cut were needed to bring more energy to economy
>
> Nonsense. The fact that the social-democratic parties worldwide - SPD, PS in France, DS in Italy, Labour Party in NZ etc - have accepted pure neo-liberal ideology like that just shows why no-one should bother voting for them any more. If the two major parties are only going to argue about how much to punish the workers, then no wonder life for so many ordinary Europeans has gone backwards.
We can rebuuild the Iron Curtain if you want... No. I can't agree with you. If the social-democratic parties worldwide realized that, it's becuase it's not possible to lead the actual world with politics, ideologies from the past because the world is changed fastly in the last years. Beeing social-democrat means keep interest of the whole population, mainly the poorer (and not only the workers) and make the system working. If the system doesn't work, too many debits, the economy is going negative, etc... something has to be done to revitalize the economy taht is the heart of a nation. As Veltroni (Major of Rome and one of the chiefs of DS, the italian social-democratic party [ex PDS, ex PCI] said "the time of the Socialist International has gone. Now it's the time to build a Democratic International". Also the PSE (European Socialist Party) is gong to modifying itself in order to represent the different parties of the new European Left. Not Socialist, not Communist but Social-Democratic, a centre-left.
> > the bombing of Serbia was a NATO decision to help Kosovo people that was going to be STERMINATED by Milosevic
>
> The bombing of Serbia did nothing to help the Kosovars. In fact it encouraged the Serbs to rally around the tinpot dictator Milosevic and thus probably extended their misery. I note that you're not trying to claim that Kosova is actually in a better state now as a UN protectorate. It's just now the Albanians ethnically cleanse the Serbs rather than the other way around.
Balcans it's the most dangerous region of Europe. Century of violences has leaded those people ready to do all to live in peace. After the Serbo-Croat war Sloveny Croatia Bosnia began a serene existance (Sloveny it's now part of the EU and Croatia is a Candidate Member). Milosevic was the second dictator that there was in Europe (the last is the actual White Russia President) and he caused two terrible wars. I'm surprised you said that Serbians lived better under Milosevic «encouraged the Serbs to rally around the tinpot dictator Milosevic and thus probably extended their misery».
And yes, Kosova now it's ina better state because there's an international task force that has to mantain the peace. The situation is going better and better everyday.
____________________________
MRP Spokesman / Dûceu dels mocts dal MRP
my talossán personal page.
Visitetz Cézembre dürånt el etéu.
e-mail: ugo.truffelli AT libero.it
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| | la garçâ malpadert | September 15, 2005 - 18:34 |
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Parent message | | Üc Tärfâ | September 15, 2005 - 05:46 |
| RE: Election related TV duels(#22705), posted by la garçâ malpadert, [IP Hidden], September 15, 2005 - 18:34. Viewed 225 times. |
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la garçâ malpadert
Group: admins
(4379 posts total)
(last post: March 13, 2008 - 16:29)
Citizen #28:
Ugo Truffelli |
> We can rebuuild the Iron Curtain if you want...
The mere fact that you are accusing me of being a Stalinist shows that it's not worth having a political argument with you. I'm from a political tradition which never supported the Iron Curtain countries - and still don't. So take that insult back.
> No. I can't agree with you. If the social-democratic parties worldwide realized that, it's becuase it's > not possible to lead the actual world with politics, ideologies from the past because the world is
> changed fastly in the last years.
If the "new world economy" means there is no alternative to the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, it only shows why we need a wholly different kind of world system.
> If the system doesn't work, too many debits, the economy is going negative, etc... something has to be done to revitalize the economy taht is the heart of a nation.
And that "something" always seems to mean cutting wages or benefits. It's always the poor - and never the rich - who pay for the crisis. Why is that?
> As Veltroni (Major of Rome and one of the chiefs of DS, the italian social-democratic party [ex
> PDS, ex PCI] said "the time of the Socialist International has gone. Now it's the time to build a
> Democratic International".
The PCI was a party with many flaws, but aren't you ashamed that the modern DS really isn't different at all from Berlusconi and his fascist gangster mates? Aren't social-democrats ashamed that they've given up fighting for the poor against the rich, and instead have become beggars at the global corporate table? Aren't you afraid that the poor are one day going to decide that enough is enough and get rid of the lot of you?
> Balcans it's the most dangerous region of Europe. Century of violences has leaded those people ready to do all to live in peace. After the Serbo-Croat war Sloveny Croatia Bosnia began a serene existance (Sloveny it's now part of the EU and Croatia is a Candidate Member). Milosevic was the second dictator that there was in Europe (the last is the actual White Russia President)
> I'm surprised you said that Serbians lived better under Milosevic «encouraged the Serbs to rally
> around the tinpot dictator Milosevic and thus probably extended their misery».
It is absolutely true that, before the NATO bombing, the ordinary people of Serbia hated the dictator Milosevic. And that after the NATO bombing, they began to support Milosevic more because at least he wasn't destroying their homes and livelihood.
> And yes, Kosova now it's ina better state because there's an international task force that has to mantain the peace. The situation is going better and better everyday.
Just plain wrong.
Miestrâ Schivâ
Seneschál dal Repúblicâ Talossán / Prime Minister of the Republic of Talossa
"The Republic's Most Articulate Spokeswhatever" - R. B. Madison
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| | Üc Tärfâ | September 16, 2005 - 16:12 |
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Parent message | | la garçâ malpadert | September 15, 2005 - 18:34 |
| RE: Election related TV duels(#22722), posted by Üc Tärfâ, [IP Hidden], September 16, 2005 - 16:12. Viewed 220 times. |
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Üc Tärfâ
Group: citizens
(1365 posts total)
(last post: March 10, 2008 - 08:29)
Citizen #28:
Ugo Truffelli | >
> > We can rebuuild the Iron Curtain if you want...
>
> The mere fact that you are accusing me of being a Stalinist shows that it's not worth having a political argument with you. I'm from a political tradition which never supported the Iron Curtain countries - and still don't. So take that insult back.
It wasn't an insult. Only an ironic sentence.
> > No. I can't agree with you. If the social-democratic parties worldwide realized that, it's becuase it's > not possible to lead the actual world with politics, ideologies from the past because the world is
> > changed fastly in the last years.
>
> If the "new world economy" means there is no alternative to the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, it only shows why we need a wholly different kind of world system.
It's not a "new world economy". It's just the same 300-years-old economy. There are alternatives and a more equal globalisation it's one of it. India and China are going richer and richer and the population is reaching itself.
> > If the system doesn't work, too many debits, the economy is going negative, etc... something has to be done to revitalize the economy taht is the heart of a nation.
>
> And that "something" always seems to mean cutting wages or benefits. It's always the poor - and never the rich - who pay for the crisis. Why is that?
You need to stabilize the situation before modificate it. Old welfare states doesn't suit with the actual world. Before modificate it occurs to make it less expensive. Cut the welfare and high the taxes for the richer. This IS the difference.
> > As Veltroni (Major of Rome and one of the chiefs of DS, the italian social-democratic party [ex
> > PDS, ex PCI] said "the time of the Socialist International has gone. Now it's the time to build a
> > Democratic International".
>
> The PCI was a party with many flaws, but aren't you ashamed that the modern DS really isn't different at all from Berlusconi and his fascist gangster mates? Aren't social-democrats ashamed that they've given up fighting for the poor against the rich, and instead have become beggars at the global corporate table? Aren't you afraid that the poor are one day going to decide that enough is enough and get rid of the lot of you?
I'm not ashamed like all the people who vote social-democratic party in Europe.
> > Balcans it's the most dangerous region of Europe. Century of violences has leaded those people ready to do all to live in peace. After the Serbo-Croat war Sloveny Croatia Bosnia began a serene existance (Sloveny it's now part of the EU and Croatia is a Candidate Member). Milosevic was the second dictator that there was in Europe (the last is the actual White Russia President)
>
> > I'm surprised you said that Serbians lived better under Milosevic «encouraged the Serbs to rally
> > around the tinpot dictator Milosevic and thus probably extended their misery».
>
> It is absolutely true that, before the NATO bombing, the ordinary people of Serbia hated the dictator Milosevic. And that after the NATO bombing, they began to support Milosevic more because at least he wasn't destroying their homes and livelihood.
Let me ask something, if they now support Milosevic, Why they didn't vote for him or for his former party who wants to bring them in Serbija and "save" him from La Hague Tribunal?
> > And yes, Kosova now it's in a better state because there's an international task force that has to mantain the peace. The situation is going better and better everyday.
>
> Just plain wrong.
Funny. I don't live far from Kosova, and i know lots of people (also youngs) and i know associations who make voluntary service there. Let me say that you are wrong.
____________________________
MRP Spokesman / Dûceu dels mocts dal MRP
my talossán personal page.
Visitetz Cézembre dürånt el etéu.
e-mail: ugo.truffelli AT libero.it
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| | la garçâ malpadert | September 15, 2005 - 18:34 |
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Parent message | | Üc Tärfâ | September 15, 2005 - 05:46 |
| RE: Election related TV duels(#22706), posted by la garçâ malpadert, [IP Hidden], September 15, 2005 - 18:34. Viewed 213 times. |
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la garçâ malpadert
Group: admins
(4379 posts total)
(last post: March 13, 2008 - 16:29)
Citizen #28:
Ugo Truffelli |
> We can rebuuild the Iron Curtain if you want...
The mere fact that you are accusing me of being a Stalinist shows that it's not worth having a political argument with you. I'm from a political tradition which never supported the Iron Curtain countries - and still don't. So take that insult back.
> No. I can't agree with you. If the social-democratic parties worldwide realized that, it's becuase it's > not possible to lead the actual world with politics, ideologies from the past because the world is
> changed fastly in the last years.
If the "new world economy" means there is no alternative to the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, it only shows why we need a wholly different kind of world system.
> If the system doesn't work, too many debits, the economy is going negative, etc... something has to be done to revitalize the economy taht is the heart of a nation.
And that "something" always seems to mean cutting wages or benefits. It's always the poor - and never the rich - who pay for the crisis. Why is that?
> As Veltroni (Major of Rome and one of the chiefs of DS, the italian social-democratic party [ex
> PDS, ex PCI] said "the time of the Socialist International has gone. Now it's the time to build a
> Democratic International".
The PCI was a party with many flaws, but aren't you ashamed that the modern DS really isn't different at all from Berlusconi and his fascist gangster mates? Aren't social-democrats ashamed that they've given up fighting for the poor against the rich, and instead have become beggars at the global corporate table? Aren't you afraid that the poor are one day going to decide that enough is enough and get rid of the lot of you?
> Balcans it's the most dangerous region of Europe. Century of violences has leaded those people ready to do all to live in peace. After the Serbo-Croat war Sloveny Croatia Bosnia began a serene existance (Sloveny it's now part of the EU and Croatia is a Candidate Member). Milosevic was the second dictator that there was in Europe (the last is the actual White Russia President)
> I'm surprised you said that Serbians lived better under Milosevic «encouraged the Serbs to rally
> around the tinpot dictator Milosevic and thus probably extended their misery».
It is absolutely true that, before the NATO bombing, the ordinary people of Serbia hated the dictator Milosevic. And that after the NATO bombing, they began to support Milosevic more because at least he wasn't destroying their homes and livelihood.
> And yes, Kosova now it's ina better state because there's an international task force that has to mantain the peace. The situation is going better and better everyday.
Just plain wrong.
Miestrâ Schivâ
Seneschál dal Repúblicâ Talossán / Prime Minister of the Republic of Talossa
"The Republic's Most Articulate Spokeswhatever" - R. B. Madison
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| | D. N. Vercáriâ | September 14, 2005 - 16:41 |
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Parent message | | la garçâ malpadert | September 14, 2005 - 15:52 |
| RE: You're wrong.(#22686), posted by D. N. Vercáriâ, [IP Hidden], September 14, 2005 - 16:41. Viewed 231 times. |
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D. N. Vercáriâ
Group: citizens
(4498 posts total)
(last post: March 15, 2008 - 16:51)
Citizen #28:
Ugo Truffelli |
> Joschka Fischer has sold out every principle he ever had, even if the principles he had in the '70s - Maoism - were pretty screwy.
Whatever you will be able to say about Joschka Fischer, he was opposed to the Maoist
KBW; he was instead leaning towards the Spontaneists, the leading post-'68 left-wing faction in (academical and squatter) Frankfurt during the 70s.
Well, Spontaneism was pretty screwy, too, on a variety of levels (I've been here, in Frankfurt, where it happened), but doesn't even remotely compare to the business- or sectarian-like organized Maoism of the KBW (Kommunistischer Bund Westdeutschland = Communist Federation of West Germany).
Beyond this, people can learn by living and change their minds, as did Joschka Fischer. Talking about certain roles in a government and international alliances, for the purity of the thought one possibly has to stay in the corner of opposition for a lifetime. Because of all of the pacts and treaties and whatnot, as a Foreign Minister of a country like Germany you'll have to give in to compromises. Would you prefer to leave this field in the hands of the conservatives, just for being a saint on your own, or would you try to pick up the threads of struggling through all the international difficulties?
Without one of the forerunners of Fischer, Hansdietrich Genscher (FDP), we might possibly still live in a divided Europe. All what lead to the (re)union of Germany has been a series of diplomatic compromises, too... Politically the purity of thought may look refreshing, but in some cases this quest for purity may end up in the lonelyness of mile-high mountains where no-one is living.
- D. N. Vercáriâ
¡Pecüliárismeu és escasençâ - MRP!
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| | la garçâ malpadert | September 14, 2005 - 17:28 |
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Parent message | | D. N. Vercáriâ | September 14, 2005 - 16:41 |
| I stand corrected.(#22688), posted by la garçâ malpadert, [IP Hidden], September 14, 2005 - 17:28. Viewed 232 times. |
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la garçâ malpadert
Group: admins
(4379 posts total)
(last post: March 13, 2008 - 16:29)
Citizen #28:
Ugo Truffelli |
> Whatever you will be able to say about Joschka Fischer, he was opposed to the Maoist
> KBW; he was instead leaning towards the Spontaneists, the leading post-'68 left-wing faction in (academical and squatter) Frankfurt during the 70s.
My apologies, an honest mistake on my part. I was under the impression that many of the founders of die Grünen were ex-Maoists. Still, that, in a way, makes it worse. I'd expect a former worshipper of Chairman Mao to knuckle under to power - not someone who used to understand the value of spontaneous action from below.
By the way, I must say that I don't understand your other post. In what way were the Nazi or Stalinist regimes "pure and principled"? Do you mean they had an ideology? Of course they did, but do you think that the actually-existing BRD doesn't have an ideology? It's just that it's more and more the ideology of neo-liberalism and less the ideology of the "social market".
You (subtly) accuse me of elevating purity of principle above the reality of human life - well, and just what are the Union parties and the "traffic light" parties doing but exactly that, with their worship of the globalised free market? Everyone's got an ideology. Some are more honest than others.
Miestrâ Schivâ
Seneschál dal Repúblicâ Talossán / Prime Minister of the Republic of Talossa
"The Republic's Most Articulate Spokeswhatever" - R. B. Madison
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| | D. N. Vercáriâ | September 14, 2005 - 17:49 |
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Parent message | | la garçâ malpadert | September 14, 2005 - 17:28 |
| RE: I stand corrected.(#22691), posted by D. N. Vercáriâ, [IP Hidden], September 14, 2005 - 17:49. Viewed 218 times. |
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D. N. Vercáriâ
Group: citizens
(4498 posts total)
(last post: March 15, 2008 - 16:51)
Citizen #28:
Ugo Truffelli | >
> > Whatever you will be able to say about Joschka Fischer, he was opposed to the Maoist
> > KBW; he was instead leaning towards the Spontaneists, the leading post-'68 left-wing faction in (academical and squatter) Frankfurt during the 70s.
>
> My apologies, an honest mistake on my part. I was under the impression that many of the founders of die Grünen were ex-Maoists. Still, that, in a way, makes it worse. I'd expect a former worshipper of Chairman Mao to knuckle under to power - not someone who used to understand the value of spontaneous action from below.
Spontaneous action from below led to forming the Green party with other oppositional groups, in the late 70s and early 80s - including remnants of the Maoists, Feminists, others. Ecology may have been the smallest common denominator. ;-)
> By the way, I must say that I don't understand your other post. In what way were the Nazi or Stalinist regimes "pure and principled"? Do you mean they had an ideology? Of course they did, but do you think that the actually-existing BRD doesn't have an ideology? It's just that it's more and more the ideology of neo-liberalism and less the ideology of the "social market".
No, it's not about having an ideology. It's about refusing to accept that there are other, different ideas floating around, some of which may be diametrically different, so all what is left to do to get along with each other is to negotiate, debate, discuss, talk, and whatnot, until there is an compromise that may not be wonderful but would be the only way to get on.
> You (subtly) accuse me of elevating purity of principle above the reality of human life - well, and just what are the Union parties and the "traffic light" parties doing but exactly that, with their worship of the globalised free market? Everyone's got an ideology. Some are more honest than others.
If they won't accept that they'll have to listen to opponents, and if they'll outlaw their opponents, then we'll be in a dead end.
Anyway, I guess we'll have to inspect what the term "ideology" is meant to say... well, later, since over here midnight is urging me to turn off Talossa the computer. ;-)
- D. N. Vercáriâ
¡Pecüliárismeu és escasençâ - MRP!
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| | D. N. Vercáriâ | September 14, 2005 - 16:50 |
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Parent message | | D. N. Vercáriâ | September 14, 2005 - 16:41 |
| RE: And...(#22687), posted by D. N. Vercáriâ, [IP Hidden], September 14, 2005 - 16:50. Viewed 210 times. |
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D. N. Vercáriâ
Group: citizens
(4498 posts total)
(last post: March 15, 2008 - 16:51)
Citizen #28:
Ugo Truffelli | >
> > Joschka Fischer has sold out every principle he ever had, even if the principles he had in the '70s - Maoism - were pretty screwy.
>
> Whatever you will be able to say about Joschka Fischer, he was opposed to the Maoist
> KBW; he was instead leaning towards the Spontaneists, the leading post-'68 left-wing faction in (academical and squatter) Frankfurt during the 70s.
>
> Well, Spontaneism was pretty screwy, too, on a variety of levels (I've been here, in Frankfurt, where it happened), but doesn't even remotely compare to the business- or sectarian-like organized Maoism of the KBW (Kommunistischer Bund Westdeutschland = Communist Federation of West Germany).
>
> Beyond this, people can learn by living and change their minds, as did Joschka Fischer. Talking about certain roles in a government and international alliances, for the purity of the thought one possibly has to stay in the corner of opposition for a lifetime. Because of all of the pacts and treaties and whatnot, as a Foreign Minister of a country like Germany you'll have to give in to compromises. Would you prefer to leave this field in the hands of the conservatives, just for being a saint on your own, or would you try to pick up the threads of struggling through all the international difficulties?
>
> Without one of the forerunners of Fischer, Hansdietrich Genscher (FDP), we might possibly still live in a divided Europe. All what lead to the (re)union of Germany has been a series of diplomatic compromises, too... Politically the purity of thought may look refreshing, but in some cases this quest for purity may end up in the lonelyness of mile-high mountains where no-one is living.
We had two pure and principled regimes here in Germany, the Nazis for all and the Stalinists in the GDR. Luckily, all governments of the Federal Republic of Germany have been less principled, except in the field of democracy, which embraces learning, making up one's mind, changing one's mind, erring...
- D. N. Vercáriâ
¡Pecüliárismeu és escasençâ - MRP!
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| | Üc Tärfâ | September 14, 2005 - 17:33 |
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Parent message | | D. N. Vercáriâ | September 14, 2005 - 16:50 |
| RE: And...(#22689), posted by Üc Tärfâ, [IP Hidden], September 14, 2005 - 17:33. Viewed 211 times. |
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Üc Tärfâ
Group: citizens
(1365 posts total)
(last post: March 10, 2008 - 08:29)
Citizen #28:
Ugo Truffelli | > >
> > > Joschka Fischer has sold out every principle he ever had, even if the principles he had in the '70s - Maoism - were pretty screwy.
> >
> > Whatever you will be able to say about Joschka Fischer, he was opposed to the Maoist
> > KBW; he was instead leaning towards the Spontaneists, the leading post-'68 left-wing faction in (academical and squatter) Frankfurt during the 70s.
> >
> > Well, Spontaneism was pretty screwy, too, on a variety of levels (I've been here, in Frankfurt, where it happened), but doesn't even remotely compare to the business- or sectarian-like organized Maoism of the KBW (Kommunistischer Bund Westdeutschland = Communist Federation of West Germany).
> >
> > Beyond this, people can learn by living and change their minds, as did Joschka Fischer. Talking about certain roles in a government and international alliances, for the purity of the thought one possibly has to stay in the corner of opposition for a lifetime. Because of all of the pacts and treaties and whatnot, as a Foreign Minister of a country like Germany you'll have to give in to compromises. Would you prefer to leave this field in the hands of the conservatives, just for being a saint on your own, or would you try to pick up the threads of struggling through all the international difficulties?
> >
> > Without one of the forerunners of Fischer, Hansdietrich Genscher (FDP), we might possibly still live in a divided Europe. All what lead to the (re)union of Germany has been a series of diplomatic compromises, too... Politically the purity of thought may look refreshing, but in some cases this quest for purity may end up in the lonelyness of mile-high mountains where no-one is living.
>
> We had two pure and principled regimes here in Germany, the Nazis for all and the Stalinists in the GDR. Luckily, all governments of the Federal Republic of Germany have been less principled, except in the field of democracy, which embraces learning, making up one's mind, changing one's mind, erring...
I totally agree. Fischer has made an excelent compromise between his ideas and the reality of politic that, i can't stop to say it, it's a compromise. Governing following ideologies doesn't take anywhere.
And the actual CDU/CSU isn't Kohl's one, and i'm frightened for the Europe if Germany will be lead by a "euoropean passive government". Fischer was Europeist. And the actual CDU/CSU doesn't pay so much attention in the Franco-German ties that are very important in Europe... CDU/CSU ot will be another stab to Europe.
Fortunately Italy is going to elect the leftist coalition, that is more europeist (traditionally) leaded by Prodi, former President of the European Commission.
____________________________
MRP Spokesman / Dûceu dels mocts dal MRP
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e-mail: ugo.truffelli AT libero.it
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| | D. N. Vercáriâ | September 14, 2005 - 13:10 |
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Parent message | | Üc Tärfâ | September 14, 2005 - 11:22 |
| RE: Election related TV duels(#22684), posted by D. N. Vercáriâ, [IP Hidden], September 14, 2005 - 13:10. Viewed 219 times. |
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D. N. Vercáriâ
Group: citizens
(4498 posts total)
(last post: March 15, 2008 - 16:51)
Citizen #28:
Ugo Truffelli | > > This is in fact something that might probably happen. It's IMHO slightly better than the CDU/CSU/FDP option, since in some social issues the CSU is closer to the SPD than to the CDU. A CDU/FDP dominated government would be the worst case scenario.
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> But CSU isn't Stoiber's party? I believed he's "righter" than Merkel... Of course it wouldn't be the first case where a party has different oponion with his leader...
SPD/CSU is of course a sick alliance, since in some aspects the CSU is indeed more conservative than the CDU; but Bavaria has been governed by absolute majorities of the CSU ever since I remember, so as a "single political party" in Bavaria the political spectrum of the CSU is a bit wider than the spectrum of the CDU, which is maybe one reason for their success in Bavaria. And yes, the Bavarian Prime Minister Edmund Stoiber is the CSU's party leader.
> > Incidentally, I'm registered in the constituency where Joschka Fischer is the direct candidate of the Greens, so I already planned to vote for Fischer with my 1st vote.
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> O yes, please, do so... I've always admirated your foreign minister and Deputy Cancellor...
He's got a brain in his head. ;-) And he's thinking in European, even global dimensions, not only looking at the small world of Germany. I think this is worth the reward of a vote.
Well, he never got elected by the constituency, he always got into the Bundestag over the Federal list of Bündnis 90 / Die Grünen ("Green Party"). I can't forsee who's the favourite in the constituency, in recent Bundestag elections Frankfurt was divided into 3 constituencies, now there are only 2. In 2002 the winner in Fischer's constituency was a conservative CDU member, Erika Steinbach.
On a side note, the uppermost West German member of the PDS, Dieter Dehm, is from the same part of town where the Greens are usually getting triumphal results, up to 30 % in some of the polling districts. I used to live in this peculiar part of town for 20 years, until I moved out 9 years ago.
- D. N. Vercáriâ
¡Pecüliárismeu és escasençâ - MRP!
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