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| RE: You're wrong. | D. N. Vercáriâ | September 14, 2005 - 16:41 | | la garçâ malpadert | September 14, 2005 - 17:28 |
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Parent message | | D. N. Vercáriâ | September 14, 2005 - 16:41 |
| I stand corrected.(#22688), posted by la garçâ malpadert, [IP Hidden], September 14, 2005 - 17:28. Viewed 223 times. |
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la garçâ malpadert
Group: admins
(4379 posts total)
(last post: March 13, 2008 - 16:29)
Citizen #26:
Dieter N Vercáriâ |
> Whatever you will be able to say about Joschka Fischer, he was opposed to the Maoist
> KBW; he was instead leaning towards the Spontaneists, the leading post-'68 left-wing faction in (academical and squatter) Frankfurt during the 70s.
My apologies, an honest mistake on my part. I was under the impression that many of the founders of die Grünen were ex-Maoists. Still, that, in a way, makes it worse. I'd expect a former worshipper of Chairman Mao to knuckle under to power - not someone who used to understand the value of spontaneous action from below.
By the way, I must say that I don't understand your other post. In what way were the Nazi or Stalinist regimes "pure and principled"? Do you mean they had an ideology? Of course they did, but do you think that the actually-existing BRD doesn't have an ideology? It's just that it's more and more the ideology of neo-liberalism and less the ideology of the "social market".
You (subtly) accuse me of elevating purity of principle above the reality of human life - well, and just what are the Union parties and the "traffic light" parties doing but exactly that, with their worship of the globalised free market? Everyone's got an ideology. Some are more honest than others.
Miestrâ Schivâ
Seneschál dal Repúblicâ Talossán / Prime Minister of the Republic of Talossa
"The Republic's Most Articulate Spokeswhatever" - R. B. Madison
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| | D. N. Vercáriâ | September 14, 2005 - 17:49 |
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Parent message | | la garçâ malpadert | September 14, 2005 - 17:28 |
| RE: I stand corrected.(#22691), posted by D. N. Vercáriâ, [IP Hidden], September 14, 2005 - 17:49. Viewed 208 times. |
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D. N. Vercáriâ
Group: citizens
(4498 posts total)
(last post: March 15, 2008 - 16:51)
Citizen #26:
Dieter N Vercáriâ | >
> > Whatever you will be able to say about Joschka Fischer, he was opposed to the Maoist
> > KBW; he was instead leaning towards the Spontaneists, the leading post-'68 left-wing faction in (academical and squatter) Frankfurt during the 70s.
>
> My apologies, an honest mistake on my part. I was under the impression that many of the founders of die Grünen were ex-Maoists. Still, that, in a way, makes it worse. I'd expect a former worshipper of Chairman Mao to knuckle under to power - not someone who used to understand the value of spontaneous action from below.
Spontaneous action from below led to forming the Green party with other oppositional groups, in the late 70s and early 80s - including remnants of the Maoists, Feminists, others. Ecology may have been the smallest common denominator. ;-)
> By the way, I must say that I don't understand your other post. In what way were the Nazi or Stalinist regimes "pure and principled"? Do you mean they had an ideology? Of course they did, but do you think that the actually-existing BRD doesn't have an ideology? It's just that it's more and more the ideology of neo-liberalism and less the ideology of the "social market".
No, it's not about having an ideology. It's about refusing to accept that there are other, different ideas floating around, some of which may be diametrically different, so all what is left to do to get along with each other is to negotiate, debate, discuss, talk, and whatnot, until there is an compromise that may not be wonderful but would be the only way to get on.
> You (subtly) accuse me of elevating purity of principle above the reality of human life - well, and just what are the Union parties and the "traffic light" parties doing but exactly that, with their worship of the globalised free market? Everyone's got an ideology. Some are more honest than others.
If they won't accept that they'll have to listen to opponents, and if they'll outlaw their opponents, then we'll be in a dead end.
Anyway, I guess we'll have to inspect what the term "ideology" is meant to say... well, later, since over here midnight is urging me to turn off Talossa the computer. ;-)
- D. N. Vercáriâ
¡Pecüliárismeu és escasençâ - MRP!
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| | D. N. Vercáriâ | September 14, 2005 - 16:50 |
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Parent message | | D. N. Vercáriâ | September 14, 2005 - 16:41 |
| RE: And...(#22687), posted by D. N. Vercáriâ, [IP Hidden], September 14, 2005 - 16:50. Viewed 202 times. |
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D. N. Vercáriâ
Group: citizens
(4498 posts total)
(last post: March 15, 2008 - 16:51)
Citizen #26:
Dieter N Vercáriâ | >
> > Joschka Fischer has sold out every principle he ever had, even if the principles he had in the '70s - Maoism - were pretty screwy.
>
> Whatever you will be able to say about Joschka Fischer, he was opposed to the Maoist
> KBW; he was instead leaning towards the Spontaneists, the leading post-'68 left-wing faction in (academical and squatter) Frankfurt during the 70s.
>
> Well, Spontaneism was pretty screwy, too, on a variety of levels (I've been here, in Frankfurt, where it happened), but doesn't even remotely compare to the business- or sectarian-like organized Maoism of the KBW (Kommunistischer Bund Westdeutschland = Communist Federation of West Germany).
>
> Beyond this, people can learn by living and change their minds, as did Joschka Fischer. Talking about certain roles in a government and international alliances, for the purity of the thought one possibly has to stay in the corner of opposition for a lifetime. Because of all of the pacts and treaties and whatnot, as a Foreign Minister of a country like Germany you'll have to give in to compromises. Would you prefer to leave this field in the hands of the conservatives, just for being a saint on your own, or would you try to pick up the threads of struggling through all the international difficulties?
>
> Without one of the forerunners of Fischer, Hansdietrich Genscher (FDP), we might possibly still live in a divided Europe. All what lead to the (re)union of Germany has been a series of diplomatic compromises, too... Politically the purity of thought may look refreshing, but in some cases this quest for purity may end up in the lonelyness of mile-high mountains where no-one is living.
We had two pure and principled regimes here in Germany, the Nazis for all and the Stalinists in the GDR. Luckily, all governments of the Federal Republic of Germany have been less principled, except in the field of democracy, which embraces learning, making up one's mind, changing one's mind, erring...
- D. N. Vercáriâ
¡Pecüliárismeu és escasençâ - MRP!
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| | Üc Tärfâ | September 14, 2005 - 17:33 |
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Parent message | | D. N. Vercáriâ | September 14, 2005 - 16:50 |
| RE: And...(#22689), posted by Üc Tärfâ, [IP Hidden], September 14, 2005 - 17:33. Viewed 203 times. |
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Üc Tärfâ
Group: citizens
(1365 posts total)
(last post: March 10, 2008 - 08:29)
Citizen #26:
Dieter N Vercáriâ | > >
> > > Joschka Fischer has sold out every principle he ever had, even if the principles he had in the '70s - Maoism - were pretty screwy.
> >
> > Whatever you will be able to say about Joschka Fischer, he was opposed to the Maoist
> > KBW; he was instead leaning towards the Spontaneists, the leading post-'68 left-wing faction in (academical and squatter) Frankfurt during the 70s.
> >
> > Well, Spontaneism was pretty screwy, too, on a variety of levels (I've been here, in Frankfurt, where it happened), but doesn't even remotely compare to the business- or sectarian-like organized Maoism of the KBW (Kommunistischer Bund Westdeutschland = Communist Federation of West Germany).
> >
> > Beyond this, people can learn by living and change their minds, as did Joschka Fischer. Talking about certain roles in a government and international alliances, for the purity of the thought one possibly has to stay in the corner of opposition for a lifetime. Because of all of the pacts and treaties and whatnot, as a Foreign Minister of a country like Germany you'll have to give in to compromises. Would you prefer to leave this field in the hands of the conservatives, just for being a saint on your own, or would you try to pick up the threads of struggling through all the international difficulties?
> >
> > Without one of the forerunners of Fischer, Hansdietrich Genscher (FDP), we might possibly still live in a divided Europe. All what lead to the (re)union of Germany has been a series of diplomatic compromises, too... Politically the purity of thought may look refreshing, but in some cases this quest for purity may end up in the lonelyness of mile-high mountains where no-one is living.
>
> We had two pure and principled regimes here in Germany, the Nazis for all and the Stalinists in the GDR. Luckily, all governments of the Federal Republic of Germany have been less principled, except in the field of democracy, which embraces learning, making up one's mind, changing one's mind, erring...
I totally agree. Fischer has made an excelent compromise between his ideas and the reality of politic that, i can't stop to say it, it's a compromise. Governing following ideologies doesn't take anywhere.
And the actual CDU/CSU isn't Kohl's one, and i'm frightened for the Europe if Germany will be lead by a "euoropean passive government". Fischer was Europeist. And the actual CDU/CSU doesn't pay so much attention in the Franco-German ties that are very important in Europe... CDU/CSU ot will be another stab to Europe.
Fortunately Italy is going to elect the leftist coalition, that is more europeist (traditionally) leaded by Prodi, former President of the European Commission.
____________________________
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my talossán personal page.
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