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| FINAL RESULTS ON ROUND ONE OF AMENDMENTS | la garçâ malpadert | January 30, 2005 - 19:18 | | la garçâ malpadert | January 30, 2005 - 23:53 |
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Parent message | | FINAL RESULTS ON ROUND ONE OF AMENDMENTS | la garçâ malpadert | January 30, 2005 - 19:18 |
| Precise results(#1012), posted by la garçâ malpadert, [IP Hidden], January 30, 2005 - 23:53. Viewed 398 times. |
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la garçâ malpadert
Group: admins
(4379 posts total)
(last post: March 13, 2008 - 16:29)
Citizen #22:
Miestrâ Schivâ | 1. That Title Two, Article One, Section 6 be amended to read as follows:
" No person may be re-elected to more than two consecutive terms as President."
(moved by Ián Anglatzarâ; seconded by Martì-Páir Furxhéir.)
PASSED by 9 votes to 2.. Voting for: Schivâ, Kelley, Furxhéir, Angaltzarâ, Lowry, Vercária, Cooper, Higraff, Verbotten. Voting against: Valcádac'h, Gruber.
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2. That Title Two, Article One, Section 11 be amended to read as follows:
"If the High Court finds the President guilty of a willful violation of any law, it may declare him or her to have forfeited his or her office. After impeachment, it may issue a temporary order barring the President from exercising the powers of his or her office, or from being elected or re-elected to any public office for a period no greater than one year."
(moved by Ián Anglatzarâ; seconded by Martì-Páir Furxhéir.)
PASSED by 10 votes to 0. Voting for: Schivâ, Kelley, Furxhéir, Angaltzarâ, Lowry, Vercária, Cooper, Higraff, Gruber, Verbotten. Abstaining: Valcádac'h.
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3. That Title Two, Article One, Section 9 (d) be amended to read as follows:
"The President has the power to pardon those convicted by a Court of a crime, on behalf of the Republic, subject to any such pardon being approved by referendum."
(moved by Miestrâ Schivâ; seconded by Martì-Páir Furxhéir.)
PASSED by 6 votes to 1. Voting for: Kelley, Lowry, Vercáriâ, Cooper, Higraff, Verbotten. Voting against: Gruber. Abstaining: Schivâ, Furxhéir, Anglatzarâ, Valcádac'h.
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4. That Title Two, Article Two, Section 7 be amended to read as follows:
"Until Parlamînt otherwise decides, the size of the Chamber of Deputies shall be twice the number of members of the Senäts, minus one."
(moved by Martì-Páir Furxhéir; seconded by Miestrâ Schivâ.)
PASSED by 8 votes to 1. Voting for: Kelley, Furxhéir, Lowry, Vercária, Cooper, Valcádac'h, Gruber, Verbotten. Voting against: Anglatzarâ. Abstaining: Schivâ, Higraff.
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5. That the Appendix to the Constitution be replaced by the following text:
"APPENDIX: PROCEDURE FOR THE ADOPTION OF THE CONSTITUTION
"1. This Constitution shall require the approval of the Provisional Governing Council by at least a two-thirds majority of those voting in a referendum and at least half of the members of the Council. It shall come into force the next day, thus overriding all previous constitutions and organic laws.
"2 . During the referendum specified in s. 1, the election for the first president shall be conducted. The winner of the election shall come into office on the same day as the consitution comes into force. In the event that the population rejects the constitution, the election shall be considered void and null.
"3. Upon enactment of this Constitution, the Provisional Governing Council and the newly elected president shall immediately do the following, in this order:
a) the President shall nominate a Secretary of State, to be confirmed by 2/3 of the Provisional Governing Council.
b) Enact legislation to assign citizens to Provinces as provided in Title One, Article Three of this Constitution.
c) Enact legislation to provide for election of a Parlamînt, and for the conduct of referendums.
d) Call elections for the house of Deputies, and a month later, for the Senate. Until these positions are filled, the Council shall exercise their powers under this Constitution.
"4. Until the positions of Secretary of State and Chief Justice of the High Court are filled, their provisional counterparts shall exercise their powers under this Constitution. The elected President shall function as Dean of the Provisional Governing Council.
"5. Until they are overriden, repealed, or found to violate the new constitution, all laws passed by the Provisional Governing Council shall remain in place."
(moved by Martì-Páir Furxhéir; seconded by Miestrâ Schivâ.)
PASSED by 9 votes to 2. Voting for: Schivâ, Kelley, Furxhéir, Anglatzarâ, Lowry, Cooper, Higraff, Gruber, Verbotten. Voting against: Vercária, Valcádac'h.
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6. That Title Two, Article One, Section 3 be amended as follows:
"Any citizen of the Republic not otherwise disqualified by this Constitution may be elected the President of the Republic of Talossa."
(moved by D. Nanöchfiglheu Vercáriâ; seconded by Chirisch Cavéir.)
REJECTED by 6 votes to 5. Voting for: Lowry, Vercária, Cooper, Valcádach, Verbotten. Voting against: Schivâ, Kelley, Furxhéir, Anglatzarâ, Higraff, Gruber.
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7. That Title Two, Article Two, Section 12 be amended as follows:
"Any citizen of the Republic not otherwise disqualified by this Constitution may be elected to the Senäts."
(moved by D. Nanöchfiglheu Vercáriâ; seconded by Chirisch Cavéir.)
REJECTED by 6 votes to 5. Voting for: Lowry, Vercária, Cooper, Valcádach, Verbotten. Voting against: Schivâ, Kelley, Furxhéir, Anglatzarâ, Higraff, Gruber.
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8. That Title Two, Article Three, Section 3 be amended as follows:
"Subject to the Standing Orders of the Chamber of Deputies, any citizen of the Republic not otherwise disqualified by this Constitution may be chosen as Seneschál."
(moved by D. Nanöchfiglheu Vercáriâ; seconded by Chirisch Cavéir.)
PASSED by 6 votes to 5. Voting for: Furxhéir, Lowry, Vercária, Cooper, Valcádach, Verbotten. Voting against: Schivâ, Kelley, Anglatzarâ, Higraff, Gruber.
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9. That Title One, Article One, Section 1 be amended to read as follows:
"The name of the State, in the national language, is la Repúblicâ Talossán. In English, the name of the State is The Republic of Talossa, citizens of which shall be referred to hereafter as 'Talossans'."
(moved by Gödafrïeu Válcadác'h; seconded by Martì-Páir Furxhéir.)
PASSED by 9 votes to 1. Voting for: Kelley, Furxhéir, Angaltzarâ, Lowry, Valcádac'h, Cooper, Higraff, Gruber, Verbotten. Voting against: Schivâ. Abstaining: Vercáriâ.
Miestrâ Schivâ
"The Republic's Most Articulate Spokeswhatever" - R. B. Madison
A slave begins by demanding justice, and ends by wanting to wear a crown. |
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| | Justice dal Navâ | January 31, 2005 - 14:04 |
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Parent message | | la garçâ malpadert | January 30, 2005 - 23:53 |
| RE: Precise results(#1026), posted by Justice dal Navâ, [IP Hidden], January 31, 2005 - 14:04. Viewed 342 times. |
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Justice dal Navâ
Group: admins
(5222 posts total)
(last post: March 14, 2008 - 13:43)
Citizen #22:
Miestrâ Schivâ | > 1. That Title Two, Article One, Section 6 be amended to read as follows:
> " No person may be re-elected to more than two consecutive terms as President."
>
> (moved by Ián Anglatzarâ; seconded by Martì-Páir Furxhéir.)
>
> PASSED by 9 votes to 2.. Voting for: Schivâ, Kelley, Furxhéir, Angaltzarâ, Lowry, Vercária, Cooper, Higraff, Verbotten. Voting against: Valcádac'h, Gruber.
It's anti-democratic. Keeping the people from selecting anyone who is eligible and is who they want is flat-out anti-democratic.
> 3. That Title Two, Article One, Section 9 (d) be amended to read as follows:
>
> "The President has the power to pardon those convicted by a Court of a crime, on behalf of the Republic, subject to any such pardon being approved by referendum."
>
> (moved by Miestrâ Schivâ; seconded by Martì-Páir Furxhéir.)
>
> PASSED by 6 votes to 1. Voting for: Kelley, Lowry, Vercáriâ, Cooper, Higraff, Verbotten. Voting against: Gruber. Abstaining: Schivâ, Furxhéir, Anglatzarâ, Valcádac'h.
Adding a referendum seems to complicate the process. Weren't certain folks arguing AGAINST complexity?
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E isc al Arendra del Bún Úr. Fáden es fóclan gleðen fer brach. El Bún Úr fólat ëtfin cún sino synt prepar. Cún þis paset, þa omin isc fólen. Es lyþ was sár. -- vól Cúliðlaþ
Chirischtôval Curt Cavéir,
Dean of the Republic of Talossa
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| | la garçâ malpadert | February 01, 2005 - 03:06 |
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Parent message | | Justice dal Navâ | January 31, 2005 - 14:04 |
| RE: Precise results(#1046), posted by la garçâ malpadert, [IP Hidden], February 01, 2005 - 03:06. Viewed 416 times. |
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la garçâ malpadert
Group: admins
(4379 posts total)
(last post: March 13, 2008 - 16:29)
Citizen #22:
Miestrâ Schivâ | > > 1. That Title Two, Article One, Section 6 be amended to read as follows:
> > " No person may be re-elected to more than two consecutive terms as President."
> >
> > PASSED by 9 votes to 2..
>
> It's anti-democratic.
Firstly, an 82% majority in a referendum is plenty democratic. :) Secondly, the whole representative government system is not-quite-democratic - and a Senate, which you love, is almost explicitly counter-democratic. But we're doing it anyway because it's fun. If we were going to be purely democratic, we'd keep going with the current "Direct Democracy / PGC" system.
> Keeping the people from selecting anyone who is eligible and is who they want is flat-out anti democratic.
But... you voted *against* Amendments 6, 7 and 8!
Miestrâ Schivâ
"The Republic's Most Articulate Spokeswhatever" - R. B. Madison
A slave begins by demanding justice, and ends by wanting to wear a crown. |
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| | D. N. Vercáriâ | January 31, 2005 - 17:37 |
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Parent message | | Justice dal Navâ | January 31, 2005 - 14:04 |
| RE: Precise results(#1035), posted by D. N. Vercáriâ, [IP Hidden], January 31, 2005 - 17:37. Viewed 353 times. |
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D. N. Vercáriâ
Group: citizens
(4498 posts total)
(last post: March 15, 2008 - 16:51)
Citizen #22:
Miestrâ Schivâ | > > 1. That Title Two, Article One, Section 6 be amended to read as follows:
> > " No person may be re-elected to more than two consecutive terms as President."
> >
> > (moved by Ián Anglatzarâ; seconded by Martì-Páir Furxhéir.)
> >
> > PASSED by 9 votes to 2.. Voting for: Schivâ, Kelley, Furxhéir, Angaltzarâ, Lowry, Vercária, Cooper, Higraff, Verbotten. Voting against: Valcádac'h, Gruber.
>
> It's anti-democratic. Keeping the people from selecting anyone who is eligible and is who they want is flat-out anti-democratic.
But the amended §2.1.6 says that after two terms as President said President isn't elegible any more.
Looking at an amendmend that did not sail through, it's quite perfect that eligibility is restricted in case of President elections. How is it more anti-democratic to prevent somehow eternal Presidencies than to prevent Presidencies of people that just became citizens of the Republic?
Let's live with it, since it's the decision of majorities those who voted on the proposed amendments.
- D. N. Vercáriâ |
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| | Justice dal Navâ | January 31, 2005 - 19:23 |
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Parent message | | D. N. Vercáriâ | January 31, 2005 - 17:37 |
| RE: Precise results(#1039), posted by Justice dal Navâ, [IP Hidden], January 31, 2005 - 19:23. Viewed 333 times. |
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Justice dal Navâ
Group: admins
(5222 posts total)
(last post: March 14, 2008 - 13:43)
Citizen #22:
Miestrâ Schivâ | > > > 1. That Title Two, Article One, Section 6 be amended to read as follows:
> > > " No person may be re-elected to more than two consecutive terms as President."
> > >
> > > (moved by Ián Anglatzarâ; seconded by Martì-Páir Furxhéir.)
> > >
> > > PASSED by 9 votes to 2.. Voting for: Schivâ, Kelley, Furxhéir, Angaltzarâ, Lowry, Vercária, Cooper, Higraff, Verbotten. Voting against: Valcádac'h, Gruber.
> >
> > It's anti-democratic. Keeping the people from selecting anyone who is eligible and is who they want is flat-out anti-democratic.
>
> But the amended §2.1.6 says that after two terms as President said President isn't elegible any more.
>
> Looking at an amendmend that did not sail through, it's quite perfect that eligibility is restricted in case of President elections. How is it more anti-democratic to prevent somehow eternal Presidencies than to prevent Presidencies of people that just became citizens of the Republic?
"Perpetual presidencies?" Do you honestly think that the people of the Republic will keep someone in power forever? And if they do, is that not the prerogative of the voters to choose who they want, if that person is eligible?
However, putting restrictions on newbies wanting to run for the presidency is completely consistent with democratic ideals. It doesn't say "You can never do this," it just says "You can't do this for a while." Barring re-election of a president past that one chance is a Never Again proposition. And therefore, undemocratic.
> Let's live with it, since it's the decision of majorities those who voted on the proposed amendments.
I'll live with it, but I will also complain. :-)
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E isc al Arendra del Bún Úr. Fáden es fóclan gleðen fer brach. El Bún Úr fólat ëtfin cún sino synt prepar. Cún þis paset, þa omin isc fólen. Es lyþ was sár. -- vól Cúliðlaþ
Chirischtôval Curt Cavéir,
Dean of the Republic of Talossa
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| | D. N. Vercáriâ | January 31, 2005 - 19:58 |
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Parent message | | Justice dal Navâ | January 31, 2005 - 19:23 |
| RE: Precise results(#1041), posted by D. N. Vercáriâ, [IP Hidden], January 31, 2005 - 19:58. Viewed 339 times. |
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D. N. Vercáriâ
Group: citizens
(4498 posts total)
(last post: March 15, 2008 - 16:51)
Citizen #22:
Miestrâ Schivâ |
> However, putting restrictions on newbies wanting to run for the presidency is completely consistent with democratic ideals. It doesn't say "You can never do this," it just says "You can't do this for a while." Barring re-election of a president past that one chance is a Never Again proposition. And therefore, undemocratic.
Oops. Now I see what you mean. Anyway I understood the amendment like "you can't do this for a while", or more precisely, like "after two consecutive terms it's time to time to stand down for at least one term". If someone proves that indeed this amendment is a "never again" clause, then we should possibly try to amend the amendment.
- D. N. Vercáriâ |
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| | President Anglatzarâ | February 01, 2005 - 02:46 |
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Parent message | | D. N. Vercáriâ | January 31, 2005 - 19:58 |
| RE: Precise results(#1044), posted by President Anglatzarâ, [IP Hidden], February 01, 2005 - 02:46. Viewed 446 times. |
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President Anglatzarâ
Group: admins
(3194 posts total)
(last post: March 14, 2008 - 07:21)
Citizen #22:
Miestrâ Schivâ | The amendment only stops presidents from sitting three terms in a row, nothing else.
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