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Voting on Amendments to Third Draft Constitution OPENS(#1135), posted by la garçâ malpadert, [IP Hidden], February 23, 2005 - 16:26. Viewed 801 times.
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la garēā malpadert
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Citizen #22:
Miestrā Schivā		Azul:

I have made a policy decision, which I believe I am entitled to as Chair, that this is the last round of discussion and amendment before tidying and final ratification. If anyone wants to protest this decision, now is the time to do so.

Here is the Third Draft Constitution, and here are the Third Round Amendments. We have two things to vote for: Dieter's amendment which will allow a petition of citizens to call for the establishment of a new province, and the "bicameral with delay" amendment requested by Grubi and JKK and drafted by myself.

(Deet, I changed your amendment slightly to mandate a minimum of six people to force the creation of a new province. Please tell me if this is a problem - I didn't think we wanted a dozen one-person provinces cluttering up the landscape!)

Same rules apply as ever. Votes close in a week, or twenty-four hours after we get ten votes, whichever is the later.

Once again, I will act as tiebreaker, in that I will abstain on both votes unless there is a tie.


Miestrā Schivā

"The Republic's Most Articulate Spokeswhatever" - R. B. Madison

A slave begins by demanding justice, and ends by wanting to wear a crown.
Voting on Amendments to Third Draft Constitution OPENSla garēā malpadertFebruary 23, 2005 - 16:26
Mr. Furxheir, R.M.W.February 24, 2005 - 15:13
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  • Voting on Amendments to Third Draft Constitution OPENS
    		• la garçâ malpadertFebruary 23, 2005 - 16:26
    Per on both(#1166), posted by Mr. Furxheir, R.M.W., [IP Hidden], February 24, 2005 - 15:13. Viewed 621 times.
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    Mr. Furxheir, R.M.W.
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    Citizen #22:
    Miestrā Schivā    		I am having a VERY busy day. Didn't even get to publish Talossa Weekly ( thought it is 50% done ).

    I vote Pėr on both.

    What does an elephant with Diarrhea need ?
    Lot's of space...
    JKKFebruary 24, 2005 - 11:56
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  • Voting on Amendments to Third Draft Constitution OPENS
    		• la garçâ malpadertFebruary 23, 2005 - 16:26
    Joining...(#1162), posted by JKK, [IP Hidden], February 24, 2005 - 11:56. Viewed 650 times.
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    JKK
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    Citizen #22:
    Miestrā Schivā    		...the queue of double pėrverts. Per on both.

    Was this 'Senate kicks in at a certain citizen threshold' concept originally my idea? For some reason I imagine it was.

    jkk
    AIM: jkkandalex
    E-mail: apostate at gte dot net
    la garçâ malpadertFebruary 24, 2005 - 15:11
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    JKKFebruary 24, 2005 - 11:56
    RE: Joining...(#1165), posted by la garçâ malpadert, [IP Hidden], February 24, 2005 - 15:11. Viewed 705 times.
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    la garēā malpadert
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    Citizen #22:
    Miestrā Schivā
    > Was this 'Senate kicks in at a certain citizen threshold' concept originally my idea? For some reason I imagine it was.

    I think you had the idea of having it kick in at a certain population level - but I had the additional idea of waiting until every Province was big enough to elect a Senator. So, we can share the credit if it passes (looks likely, at the moment - the vote is 5-0, and I'm abstaining).


    Miestrā Schivā

    "The Republic's Most Articulate Spokeswhatever" - R. B. Madison

    A slave begins by demanding justice, and ends by wanting to wear a crown.
    President AnglatzarâFebruary 24, 2005 - 08:37
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  • Voting on Amendments to Third Draft Constitution OPENS
    		• la garçâ malpadertFebruary 23, 2005 - 16:26
    RE: Voting on Amendments to Third Draft Constitution OPENS(#1160), posted by President Anglatzarâ, [IP Hidden], February 24, 2005 - 08:37. Viewed 701 times.
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    President Anglatzarā
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    Citizen #22:
    Miestrā Schivā    		Amendment 12: Pėr (either version)

    Amendment 13: While I would like to point out that in the actual text of Amendment 13 is "Only a Province with more than six citizens of voting age shall elect Senators." which does not reflect the description of it: "the Republic shall shift from a unicameral to a bicameral system once there are five provinces each with at least six citizens qualified to vote" I vote Pėr, because I think six are too few but seven a fitting minimum.
    --
    Less is more - say no to fat books
    D. N. VercáriâFebruary 24, 2005 - 03:45
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  • Voting on Amendments to Third Draft Constitution OPENS
    		• la garçâ malpadertFebruary 23, 2005 - 16:26
    RE: my votes(#1149), posted by D. N. Vercáriâ, [IP Hidden], February 24, 2005 - 03:45. Viewed 701 times.
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    D. N. Vercįriā
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    Citizen #22:
    Miestrā Schivā    		Two times Për - I'm confident that the commission will come up with a citizen-friendly solution in the amendment regarding provinces.

    ( Dieter-friendly is fine, but probably not enough - you've got to try harder. :-) )

    - D. N. Vercįriā
    Gödafrïeu Válcadác’hFebruary 23, 2005 - 22:39
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  • Voting on Amendments to Third Draft Constitution OPENS
    		• la garçâ malpadertFebruary 23, 2005 - 16:26
    Për to both - D. N. V.-friendly or not(#1140), posted by Gödafrïeu Válcadác’h, [IP Hidden], February 23, 2005 - 22:39. Viewed 694 times.
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    Gödafrļeu Vįlcadįc’h
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    Citizen #22:
    Miestrā Schivā    		> Azul:
    >
    > I have made a policy decision, which I believe I am entitled to as Chair, that this is the last round of discussion and amendment before tidying and final ratification. If anyone wants to protest this decision, now is the time to do so.

    Given that three rounds of discussion were far more than what was originally expected, I think you are well-within your rights to call a halt to this. While I disagree with the Convention's take on my ten new would-be amendments wholeheartedly, I nevertheless say we must go forward with the document's tidying and ratification.

    Pėr to Dieter's amendment, whichever version gets passed.

    Pėr to the other amendment, too.
    G. V.
    www.icantbelieveitsnottonal.com
    The Talossan Wiki at www.talossapedia.com
    Justice dal NavâFebruary 23, 2005 - 21:36
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  • Voting on Amendments to Third Draft Constitution OPENS
    		• la garçâ malpadertFebruary 23, 2005 - 16:26
    Votation(#1139), posted by Justice dal Navâ, [IP Hidden], February 23, 2005 - 21:36. Viewed 656 times.
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    Justice dal Navā
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    Citizen #22:
    Miestrā Schivā    		Yes on both. Absolutemente.


    --------------------------------------
    E isc al Arendra del Bśn Śr. Fįden es fóclan glešen fer brach. El Bśn Śr fólat ėtfin cśn sino synt prepar. Cśn žis paset, ža omin isc fólen. Es lyž was sįr. -- vól Cślišlaž

    Chirischtōval Curt Cavéir,
    Dean of the Republic of Talossa

    AndyFebruary 23, 2005 - 17:37
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  • Voting on Amendments to Third Draft Constitution OPENS
    		• la garçâ malpadertFebruary 23, 2005 - 16:26
    Widdle Voties(#1138), posted by Andy, [IP Hidden], February 23, 2005 - 17:37. Viewed 704 times.
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    Citizen #22:
    Miestrā Schivā    		12: Yes (in its Dieter-friendly form, of course)
    13: Yes

    A.
    D. N. VercáriâFebruary 23, 2005 - 16:52
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  • Voting on Amendments to Third Draft Constitution OPENS
    		• la garçâ malpadertFebruary 23, 2005 - 16:26
    RE: Voting on Amendments to Third Draft Constitution OPENS(#1136), posted by D. N. Vercáriâ, [IP Hidden], February 23, 2005 - 16:52. Viewed 661 times.
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    D. N. Vercįriā
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    Citizen #22:
    Miestrā Schivā
    > (Deet, I changed your amendment slightly to mandate a minimum of six people to force the creation of a new province. Please tell me if this is a problem - I didn't think we wanted a dozen one-person provinces cluttering up the landscape!)

    The idea behind my proposed amendment has been that it's not about creating one-person provinces (which would be avoided by a withheld assent of either local government or Parlamint in my proposal). The scenarios on my mind were

    a) tiny provinces merging into larger provinces
    b) *huge* provinces breaking apart, peacefully

    following a motion of citizens. Especially scenario a) seemed to be important to me, and indeed in this case there ain't no minimum of six people to get the ball rolling. So no, your change of the amendment is not appropriate.

    - D. N. Vercįriā
    la garçâ malpadertFebruary 23, 2005 - 17:21
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    D. N. VercáriâFebruary 23, 2005 - 16:52
    RE: Voting on Amendments to Third Draft Constitution OPENS(#1137), posted by la garçâ malpadert, [IP Hidden], February 23, 2005 - 17:21. Viewed 659 times.
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    la garēā malpadert
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    Citizen #22:
    Miestrā Schivā
    > The idea behind my proposed amendment has been that it's not about creating one-person provinces (which would be avoided by a withheld assent of either local government or Parlamint in my proposal).

    Oh, your "legalese" wasn't clear that you wanted local government to approve any new provinces. Is the this amended text more like what you suggested?




    Miestrā Schivā

    "The Republic's Most Articulate Spokeswhatever" - R. B. Madison

    A slave begins by demanding justice, and ends by wanting to wear a crown.
    D. N. VercáriâFebruary 24, 2005 - 03:39
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    la garçâ malpadertFebruary 23, 2005 - 17:21
    RE: Voting on Amendments to Third Draft Constitution OPENS(#1147), posted by D. N. Vercáriâ, [IP Hidden], February 24, 2005 - 03:39. Viewed 674 times.
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    Citizen #22:
    Miestrā Schivā
    > Oh, your "legalese" wasn't clear that you wanted local government to approve any new provinces. Is the this amended text more like what you suggested?

    Yes, whereas there should have been a 3rd clause which applies if there is no local legislation; in this case the petition would need the consent of the Parlamînt. But possibly in small provinces it will be enough if the few citizens consent on what they want to do; a possible wish to join an other province will already need the consent of this province, too. On the other hand, the Parlamînt might wish to take care that no 1-person-provinces will be created...

    - D. N. Vercįriā
    la garçâ malpadertFebruary 24, 2005 - 03:47
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    D. N. VercáriâFebruary 24, 2005 - 03:39
    RE: Voting on Amendments to Third Draft Constitution OPENS(#1150), posted by la garçâ malpadert, [IP Hidden], February 24, 2005 - 03:47. Viewed 671 times.
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    la garēā malpadert
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    Citizen #22:
    Miestrā Schivā
    > > Is the this amended text more like what you suggested?
    >
    > Yes, whereas there should have been a 3rd clause which applies if there is no local legislation; in this case the petition would need the consent of the Parlamînt.

    I think that's covered by "Parlamint may create a new province, etc". I.e. it doesn't *have* to.


    Miestrā Schivā

    "The Republic's Most Articulate Spokeswhatever" - R. B. Madison

    A slave begins by demanding justice, and ends by wanting to wear a crown.
    D. N. VercáriâFebruary 24, 2005 - 04:11
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    la garçâ malpadertFebruary 24, 2005 - 03:47
    RE: Voting on Amendments to Third Draft Constitution OPENS(#1152), posted by D. N. Vercáriâ, [IP Hidden], February 24, 2005 - 04:11. Viewed 705 times.
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    D. N. Vercįriā
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    Citizen #22:
    Miestrā Schivā    		>
    > > > Is the this amended text more like what you suggested?
    > >
    > > Yes, whereas there should have been a 3rd clause which applies if there is no local legislation; in this case the petition would need the consent of the Parlamînt.
    >
    > I think that's covered by "Parlamint may create a new province, etc". I.e. it doesn't *have* to.

    Ugh. I didn't see this, because I kind of didn't want to see this. It has been my intention to express that the Parliament must not be involved in structuring or restructuring provinces, except if a province doesn't have means to get the neccessary actions done in a legal way.

    - D. N. Vercįriā
    President AnglatzarâFebruary 24, 2005 - 08:29
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    D. N. VercáriâFebruary 24, 2005 - 04:11
    RE: Voting on Amendments to Third Draft Constitution OPENS(#1159), posted by President Anglatzarâ, [IP Hidden], February 24, 2005 - 08:29. Viewed 717 times.
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    Citizen #22:
    Miestrā Schivā    		> >
    > > > > Is the this amended text more like what you suggested?
    > > >
    > > > Yes, whereas there should have been a 3rd clause which applies if there is no local legislation; in this case the petition would need the consent of the Parlamînt.
    > >
    > > I think that's covered by "Parlamint may create a new province, etc". I.e. it doesn't *have* to.
    >
    > Ugh. I didn't see this, because I kind of didn't want to see this. It has been my intention to express that the Parliament must not be involved in structuring or restructuring provinces, except if a province doesn't have means to get the neccessary actions done in a legal way.

    I hope you don't mean to leave the Parlamīnt out altogether. The Parlamīnt is the legislative body of the Republic. Even if we're just talking of rubberstamping, all law-making should pass the House before coming into force. Or else it hasn't happened.
    --
    Less is more - say no to fat books
    D. N. VercáriâFebruary 24, 2005 - 13:47
    Parent message
    President AnglatzarâFebruary 24, 2005 - 08:29
    RE: Voting on Amendments to Third Draft Constitution OPENS(#1163), posted by D. N. Vercáriâ, [IP Hidden], February 24, 2005 - 13:47. Viewed 734 times.
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    D. N. Vercįriā
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    Citizen #22:
    Miestrā Schivā    		> > >
    > > > > > Is the this amended text more like what you suggested?
    > > > >
    > > > > Yes, whereas there should have been a 3rd clause which applies if there is no local legislation; in this case the petition would need the consent of the Parlamînt.
    > > >
    > > > I think that's covered by "Parlamint may create a new province, etc". I.e. it doesn't *have* to.
    > >
    > > Ugh. I didn't see this, because I kind of didn't want to see this. It has been my intention to express that the Parliament must not be involved in structuring or restructuring provinces, except if a province doesn't have means to get the neccessary actions done in a legal way.
    >
    > I hope you don't mean to leave the Parlamīnt out altogether. The Parlamīnt is the legislative body of the Republic. Even if we're just talking of rubberstamping, all law-making should pass the House before coming into force. Or else it hasn't happened.

    Though I have to admit that I've been pondering a completely parliament-less grassroot movement for changes in the provincial structures, I'm now seeing the light. A "rubberstamping" parliament might as well pull the emergency break, if something inappropriate or even unconstitutional is happening when provinces are reforming their borders. So this is a welcome balance of powers.

    - D. N. Vercįriā
    la garçâ malpadertFebruary 24, 2005 - 04:19
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    D. N. VercáriâFebruary 24, 2005 - 04:11
    RE: Voting on Amendments to Third Draft Constitution OPENS(#1154), posted by la garçâ malpadert, [IP Hidden], February 24, 2005 - 04:19. Viewed 708 times.
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    la garēā malpadert
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    Citizen #22:
    Miestrā Schivā    		> >
    > > > > Is the this amended text more like what you suggested?
    > > >
    > > > Yes, whereas there should have been a 3rd clause which applies if there is no local legislation; in this case the petition would need the consent of the Parlamînt.
    > >
    > > I think that's covered by "Parlamint may create a new province, etc". I.e. it doesn't *have* to.
    >
    > Ugh. I didn't see this, because I kind of didn't want to see this. It has been my intention to express that the Parliament must not be involved in structuring or restructuring provinces, except if a province doesn't have means to get the neccessary actions done in a legal way.

    Yes, that's exactly what my revised draft does. It says that Parlamīnt may create a new province on the motion of a petition of citizens and consent of any provincial legislature - that is, it can't take the initiative itself.

    Sorry about the overemphases, but, as you can probably see elsewhere, I am getting a hell of a lot of grief over this constitutional process at the moment. I really think that my drafting expresses exactly what you wanted, in tighter, more legal language. If you don't agree, then I fear I may have to go and bang my head on the wall a few times. :)


    Miestrā Schivā

    "The Republic's Most Articulate Spokeswhatever" - R. B. Madison

    A slave begins by demanding justice, and ends by wanting to wear a crown.
    D. N. VercáriâFebruary 24, 2005 - 05:05
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    la garçâ malpadertFebruary 24, 2005 - 04:19
    RE: Voting on Amendments to Third Draft Constitution OPENS(#1157), posted by D. N. Vercáriâ, [IP Hidden], February 24, 2005 - 05:05. Viewed 741 times.
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    D. N. Vercįriā
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    Citizen #22:
    Miestrā Schivā
    > If you don't agree, then I fear I may have to go and bang my head on the wall a few times. :)

    Even though it might be interesting to watch this, please don't do it. ;-)

    - D. N. Vercįriā
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